tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post3659768105018696712..comments2023-05-05T02:20:39.892-07:00Comments on Cryptic Language and Vague References: Obedience as the first law of heavenOriginal Mohomiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05220176833570828412noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-81497386703130192452012-03-30T23:51:09.720-07:002012-03-30T23:51:09.720-07:00Adam, I can relate to your questions, though I don...Adam, I can relate to your questions, though I don't doubt I believed it. I mean, according to what I thought was belief. But yeah, when I testified, I believed I was sharing truth, not a mere opinion or nice notion. But I don't have a problem with the idea that I was just plain wrong about certain things, even though I still believe in more universal principles behind most or all of it. I've also been in love and thought things about relationships that did not prove themselves, but I know we can convince ourselves of a lot. Not a complete comparison, but the experiences feel similar in many ways.<br /><br />I could also be wrong now as I believe I was then. I've always said that. I do the best I know how, and I no longer need to believe I can't be wrong. I'm not afraid of "not knowing" anymore.<br /><br />What would I say? I don't know. Then-Me wasn't about to be swayed by anyone's rhetoric, nor did he trust anyone else's experience. He had to experience some things for himself and lose some fears and pride.<br /><br />I don't value simplicity as much as I value truth, so while it's been uncomfortable accepting certain kinds of complexity, I wouldn't go back, and the complexity is not daunting as it used to be but is awe-inspiring and motivational.<br /><br />I used to believe in Santa. Christmas seemed a little less magical without him at first. But there was so much more richness to Christmas that I might have missed if it had only ever been about Santa. I'm not comparing Santa to God (not that I never would in certain ways): I'm saying sometimes looking back on simpler, more magical times carries a totally understandable nostalgia, but I believe I cannot and should not "go back" by ignoring experiences or realizations in order to retreat from the challenges and unknowns of admitting I'd been wrong about something. I value truth-seeking over comfort, partially because truth-seeking has brought me something I believe is more lasting, secure, and meaningful than the kind of comfort I used to feel. It's not easy to convey. :-)<br /><br />Jimf, I hadn't heard of Milgram that I know of. I still am unfamiliar, to be honest. I am familiar with some of Haidt's work, which I find fascinating and engaging. To be honest, the Respect/Authority thing always felt a bit forced for me, which may be why I was so overboard with some of it: make it work! And Loyalty/Ingroup almost didn't matter at all. Honestly, I don't think my moral reasoning shifted after leaving the church. It shifted way before. I held on for years. :-)Original Mohomiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05220176833570828412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-83420928198625943892012-03-29T19:09:07.075-07:002012-03-29T19:09:07.075-07:00Interesting. I can see myself in your post.
Adam...Interesting. I can see myself in your post. <br /><br />Adam, very touching and relatable. Sometimes I mourn the more confident, all knowing me from years past. Things seemed simpler then.Bravonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02762204502534599107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-25917745624191450402012-03-23T13:38:03.404-07:002012-03-23T13:38:03.404-07:00That was a high cognitive load you were bearing
in...That was a high cognitive load you were bearing<br />in those days. ;-><br /><br />> I do know one thing: if you obey, you will be blessed,. . .<br />> EVEN IF IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, OR YOU CAN'T SEE<br />> HOW IT WORKS. . .<br /><br />Had you heard of Stanley Milgram at that point in your life?<br /><br />Speaking of psychology, here's a book I've been reading<br />that you might also find interesting:<br /><br />_The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics<br />and Religion_<br />by Jonathan Haidt<br />http://www.amazon.com/The-Righteous-Mind-Politics-Religion/dp/0307377903<br /><br />Haidt claims, in his "moral foundations theory" to have identified<br />five (or six, more recently) innate dimensions of human moral intuition:<br />Harm/Care; Fairness/Justice; Loyalty/Ingroup; Respect/Authority; Purity/Sanctity.<br />He says a significant difference between liberals and conservatives<br />in this country is that the former base their moral judgments primarily<br />on the first two dimensions (and largely ignore the other three),<br />whereas conservatives judge on the basis of all five.<br />Haidt also points out that what he calls WEIRD ("Western, Educated,<br />Industrial, Rich, Democratic") culture -- e.g., the culture<br />of political liberals in the US -- is indeed weird (an outlier)<br />among human cultures in general.<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Haidt<br /><br />Your concern with obedience, of course, corresponds to<br />dimension #4 (Respect/Authority) of Haidt's moral space.<br /><br />It might be amusing for you to try to guess how your own location<br />in that space has shifted since you moved away from the church.jimfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04975754342950063440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-1796314410869156362012-03-20T19:19:04.059-07:002012-03-20T19:19:04.059-07:00This is kind of fascinating. Did I ever meet pre-h...This is kind of fascinating. Did I ever meet pre-heathen O-Mo? Are you able to recognize any of yourself in the person who wrote this? There are times when I look back at things I've written in the not so distant past. Sometimes I am surprised that I was once so convinced of something that I now question or about which I have reached an entirely different conclusion. Sometimes I am embarrassed. That I ever thought a particular way about a particular thing. Sometimes part of me feels sad. Like I've lost something. Sometimes I want to mourn that loss. Sometimes I don't know how to reconcile the past me with the current me. Like they are two different people. Sometimes I want to ignore the past me. Or disown him completely. Pretend that he never existed so I can create someone new. Someone who never thought those things that the previous me thought. But then, sometimes I tell myself I shouldn't be so hard on the past me. And that I should at least acknowledge his existence, however deluded or inexperienced. And not be so quick to apologize for his naivety.<br /><br />Sometimes I try to convince myself that the past me never _really_ believed those things that he thought. He was only convinced of them because he didn't know better. Or because he was surrounded by people who believed those things. But I have a hard time convincing myself of that. Whether they are right or not, I think he did really believe them. They were more than just transient visitors. He owned them. How can I possibly disown something like that now? How can I possibly trust myself to exercise sufficient objectivity in this matter? Does the question of whether my original thoughts are right or wrong even matter anymore if I can't trust myself to do that? What will version 3.0 think of all this?<br /><br />If you had a chance to talk to your past self, what would you say? Would you try to convince him of things you've learned? Would he listen?<br /><br />I think I need a drink... :)Adamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07780754307848445764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-42265148033223138882012-03-19T16:36:49.227-07:002012-03-19T16:36:49.227-07:00That was like a trip to bizarro world.That was like a trip to bizarro world.JonJonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14158807819966424747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-49030256755842851272012-03-19T16:24:39.014-07:002012-03-19T16:24:39.014-07:00Mission rules... uhg. I still have nightmares abou...Mission rules... uhg. I still have nightmares about them every once in awhile. Thankfully, I am no longer at a point in my life where waking up 30 minutes late is a sin.El Geniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02801064758712821345noreply@blogger.com