tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post6232272194400709971..comments2023-05-05T02:20:39.892-07:00Comments on Cryptic Language and Vague References: 8: The Mormon Proposition - Tooth-Gnashing ExtravaganzaOriginal Mohomiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05220176833570828412noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-25747936866112771712009-11-10T19:51:41.777-08:002009-11-10T19:51:41.777-08:00OM,I totally get where you're coming from. I ...OM,I totally get where you're coming from. I remember when the whole Prop 8 debate was happening, and I saw bad behavior from both sides, but I sadly noticed some of the worst behavior from the gay rights side of things. While this doesn't excuse some of the petty behavior and lack of understanding I've seen from the anti-gay rights faction and both members and leaders of the church, I am always amazed by the lack of tolerance I see in those who are demanding tolerance from others. I think both sides really need to come to an understanding of the other's point-of-view. Attacking each other isn't going to build any bridges. As I've said in my own blog, I'm much less likely to listen to someone if they're saying or doing things in an attacking way. <br /><br />For example, I thought the gay rights commercial that had two missionaries coming in to a lesbian couple's home to take away their rights was over-the-top. I thought threatening actions and boycotts after Prop 8 passed were counterproductive.<br /><br />I think members of the church have been more civil at times, but I have read many an ignorant letter to the editor in both the Salt Lake Tribune and the Deseret News that simply show a lack of compassion. I also think both leaders of the church and members in general need to come to a better understanding of just what it's like to be in a gay person's shoes. I've seen a great deal of ignorance and less compassion than I would prefer from that side as well.<br /><br />But I do agree with much of what you say regarding the trailer of this film.Gay LDS Actorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17841236084753512311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-82002816671549734802009-11-10T07:09:14.746-08:002009-11-10T07:09:14.746-08:00Well, I am adorable.Well, I <i>am</i> adorable.playasinmarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05998841658611428960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-12163895635258339562009-11-10T00:26:11.870-08:002009-11-10T00:26:11.870-08:00I wouldn't want to get into an argument with y...I wouldn't want to get into an argument with you. Or any moho for that matter. I'd probably wither and turn to dust with one glare. Haha. Maybe not.<br /><br />I don't know what to say about your post. I haven't seen the trailer and don't intend to watch it. Not that I'm against it. I'm just not interested.<br /><br />This kind of debate scares me because there are both feelings and values getting scrutinized from every angle. I don't know enough to argue either way.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08175153474572340487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-67843072725112329222009-11-09T12:11:46.384-08:002009-11-09T12:11:46.384-08:00Thanks for the more connected perspective, Scott.
...Thanks for the more connected perspective, Scott.<br /><br />Pinetree, I kind of worry you're more right than I'd like about the debate having come down to emotion.<br /><br />Playa, you may have missed the fact that this post was about a lot more than some documentary, which is understandable considering the title. It's almost cute how you ascribe motives and hand-wringing, though. Precious.Original Mohomiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12887614143300677214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-68554024132769297082009-11-09T08:36:34.599-08:002009-11-09T08:36:34.599-08:00You're apprehensive about a film that may or m...You're apprehensive about a film that may or may-not take to task an institution you love. That's an understandable position. You really didn't need to spend 500 words justifying your feelings. <br /><br />I bet this film will make Sundance. Go see it. Then you'll be in a position to make a genuine analysis of its slant.<br /><br />Wouldn't that be more productive than all this hand-wringing?playasinmarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05998841658611428960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-56006590592294571252009-11-09T06:36:35.856-08:002009-11-09T06:36:35.856-08:00I interviewed for this documentary, back when it w...I interviewed for this documentary, back when it was just getting off the ground. Since then I've watched (from the sidelines) as it's been put together.<br /><br />My impression of Reed (Cowan, the director) when I interviewed was that he was sincere in his desire to put together an honest, unbiased exposé... That is, the film was/is intended to expose some questionable actions that the church (and its members) had taken in its efforts to ensure that Prop 8 passed, but every effort was going to be made to ensure a balanced and fair presentation.<br /><br />After viewing the trailer, and after observing Reed as he has geared up for the final release, I'm not sure that he has succeeded in his goal.<br /><br />I worry that in uncovering whatever evidence he has found against the church, and in interviewing however many hundreds of people he has interviewed, he has been heavily influenced and his (already negative) views toward the church have become bitter and vindictive. I worry that those views will be reflected in the choices he has made in editing and post-production, and that the film will turn out to be not much more than a hatchet job after all.<br /><br />I hope that I'm wrong. I agree with El Genio in that several of the church's recent actions <i>have</i> been hurtful, and I think that an even-handed documentary that held the organization accountable for the mistakes it has made would be a good thing.<br /><br />But I'm afraid that, as you said, there will be too much emotion portrayed and too much venom spewed. Those who already hate the church will be given more reason to do so. Those who think rationally and logically will dismiss the film and be unaffected by it. And members of the church will be given one more thing to point to and say "see, we're being persecuted!". And none of us will be any better off.<br /><br />Hope and worry are battling away within me (not that this is a major source of angst--I'm not really giving the film all that much of my attention). Maybe the trailer is just sensationalism at its best (as Alan suggested) and hope will be vindicated. We'll have to wait and see. :)Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15332275934258698026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-40982081180448279312009-11-08T23:59:01.304-08:002009-11-08T23:59:01.304-08:00The movie seems over the top, but ultimately thats...The movie seems over the top, but ultimately thats what this debate has come down to. I think the gays have it when it comes to a rational argument about fairness. The Mormons have it when it comes to appealing to the gut emotions of the community at large. As of late, an appeal to emotions has been the foundation of a winning campaign. <br /><br />This seems to me like an attempt by the gay community to throw the appeal to emotion back at the church.pinetreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06536621216802367938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-76936628540770982272009-11-08T11:39:50.778-08:002009-11-08T11:39:50.778-08:00I appreciate everyone's thoughts so far. I do...I appreciate everyone's thoughts so far. I do realize I may be expecting too much of the film, like I'm putting all of my hopes for a measured and rational response from one side or the other into it, which wouldn't be realistic.<br /><br />El Genio, I agree that the emotions can't just be discarded. I don't think they have much place in any logical debate as to whether any given legislation is legal, discriminatory, blurring or defining the church and state separation, etc. But I think it does have a place in public dialog about how we go about things and how we're treating each other, which is where I can see some of it coming into play in this film. Again, it's just SO much in that trailer. If the trailer shows the film's strongest indictments, they're flimsy at best.<br /><br />That's a problem I see: if the trailer is meant to be a teaser about the church's actions or tactics which people didn't know or about which the faithful moderates might be troubled, I think the trailer fails on that front. On the other hand, if it's just an attention-grabber on an emotional/energetic level, it probably serves its purpose.<br /><br />As people keep saying, we'll have to wait and see.Original Mohomiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12887614143300677214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-47690724157701934782009-11-08T00:47:59.080-08:002009-11-08T00:47:59.080-08:00O-Mo, I feel like standing right next to ya with m...O-Mo, I feel like standing right next to ya with my arm around your shoulder! Well said bro!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12900720352902803908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-40389091340035742272009-11-08T00:30:30.166-08:002009-11-08T00:30:30.166-08:00I don't expect the film to be the paragon of a...I don't expect the film to be the paragon of all documentaries Mormon and gay. If that's what your looking for, PBS can do a much better job. I don't expect the film to be about reaching out either. I do expect it to be a detailed look at the church's involvement in proposition 8. A lot of stuff happened here that no one is talking about. If the film is full of nothing more than heart wrenching stories than we obviously have a problem, but I'm hoping for lots of detailed information with a few good through lines of real human stories. We'll see.<br /><br /><br />FWIW I don't think you can discard the emotions attached to this so easily. I've always liked to think that I'm immune to whatever kind of rhetoric has been bouncing around. I've assure friends and family that they don't have to apologize for things they have said in the past, I can shrug off the gay jabs at work. <br /><br />But the reality is this stuff takes its toll on me. And as I discovered with Elder Oak's recent talk, it can be really disturbing to me, even though on level it doesn't make a lot of rational sense.El Geniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02801064758712821345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-68654869399559734842009-11-07T21:55:28.825-08:002009-11-07T21:55:28.825-08:00I had a similar reaction to the trailer. I thought...I had a similar reaction to the trailer. I thought "Church leadership and most rank and file members are going to see this as a hatchet job". For the film to have any traction with those in the middle, it should rationally address issues, show both sides and let the audience find the truth for themselves. But judging by the trailer, it's going to be more in the genre of Michael Moore than Bill Moyers.<br /><br />It's interesting that Dustin Lance Black is involved (apparently only as a narrator, however). His screenplay for Milk was praised for being surprisingly even handed. Doesn't look like this film will be like that, does it?<br /><br />Oh well, maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised.Nedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05938186985738546670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-46915745973974942462009-11-07T21:45:37.707-08:002009-11-07T21:45:37.707-08:00I understand and concur with a lot of your stateme...I understand and concur with a lot of your statements. I also think you may have jumped the gun by judging this movie from the trailer alone. <br /><br />A trailer is advertising intended to provoke sufficient interest that people will pay to see the whole film. Nothing more. Every movie trailer reflects the judgment of production staff & marketing as to what will generate that demand. That's all. It can't hope to convey more than a tiny portion of the whole thing. Trailers are therefore normally quite sensationalized as compared to the whole production.<br /><br />I suggest that it is better to simply reserve judgment and wait to evaluate the whole film on its merits after seeing it.<br /><br />FWIW, I also agree with Sean that the Church has painted itself into a corner on this issue. Personally I believe there IS room within LDS theology for God's gay children, and it only seems like there isn't if we admit that we really don't believe the 9th Article of Faith and that Section 132 as now popularly understood is the summum bonum Last Word God Will Ever Say On The Subject. Both seem to be latent attitudes in the Church, and both are IMHO directly repugnant to the belief in continuing revelation which we claim to believe in.<br /><br />I resolve the conflict by choosing to believe God knows the answers and is willing to give them to us IF we are ready to hear and accept them. I think too many people in the Church, including its leadership, have demonstrated that they're not yet ready.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992194211469009236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-51342319774762664912009-11-07T21:42:57.172-08:002009-11-07T21:42:57.172-08:00That was really good, O-Mo. Thanks for your thoug...That was really good, O-Mo. Thanks for your thoughts. I watched the trailer and also found it faintly ridiculous.Amy Grigghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12774660002363629146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-73252199394529622009-11-07T21:11:04.784-08:002009-11-07T21:11:04.784-08:00A very principled argument, as usual, OM. If ever...A very principled argument, as usual, OM. If ever you formulate an elixer that will replace raw emotion, fear and distrust with sincere love, understanding and concern for our fellow man, you will be able to change the world. Keep up the great work. One heart at a time.blj1224https://www.blogger.com/profile/15696404108842065078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-38350181744672411762009-11-07T20:17:48.083-08:002009-11-07T20:17:48.083-08:00Sean, I understand your perspective. I think you ...Sean, I understand your perspective. I think you generalize members of the church too much, but I understand how you see it that way. There's certainly no shortage of members unwilling to even think critically if they're afraid they may have to change their paradigms about something they consider sacred.<br /><br />And in all fairness, I've seen far more heated emotions and hotter heads in the gay community over this issue than in the church community. But I've seen a lot of emotion on both sides and really hollow rhetoric on both sides.<br /><br />I'm tired of the whole mess, really, especially since there are more pragmatic measures being taken in states like Washington, finding common ground until further progress can be made, if it can.Original Mohomiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12887614143300677214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-33178047530220861642009-11-07T19:54:05.597-08:002009-11-07T19:54:05.597-08:00Interesting thoughts. I suppose we will not know ...Interesting thoughts. I suppose we will not know until the thing is seen who will feel betrayed, vindicated, or just wishing to get back an hour and a half of our lives.<br /><br />In terms of logical discussion or even debate there are a few too many crazy people, albeit, on both sides to make such things possible.<br /><br />Regrettably those who defend the church view cannot entertain discourse that could threaten the very existence of the faith. If it were to be irrefutably discovered that homosexuality is a genetic, in born, or otherwise permanent trait, the place for gay people in LDS theology calls in to question with great severity the validity of the Plan of Salvation.<br /><br />Altering the definition of marriage beyond that which is accepted as an Western cultural norm, or even civil unions, also calls in to question the founding doctrines of Mormonism. Either way when any of the doctrinal tenants of the church are scrutinized it is nigh impossible to get past the usual defense "our faith is being persecuted" to get to the point of having intelligent debate on the issue.<br /><br />One way or the other it is a corner the church painted itself into since its very creation by Joseph Smith. I think there are plenty of cooler heads on the pro gay side of things that would take the reigns and have meaningful discussions if the other side could produce the same. At this point in time I do not see that happening. The leadership more than ever has elevated themselves to the highest penthouses of the church office building and intentionally refraining from having such interactions with the "other side."<br />A very convenient place for them as it follows the oldest of LDS traditions, if you can't win run away and live to testify another day.<br /><br />I think this film demonstrates to all including church leadership that this "problem" as Gordon B. Hinckley put it is not going away. Neither will the gays be silenced by the unjust atrocities being committed in the name of God.Seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04561860729984232424noreply@blogger.com