tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post6716511438952233922..comments2023-05-05T02:20:39.892-07:00Comments on Cryptic Language and Vague References: Backfiring PrinciplesOriginal Mohomiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05220176833570828412noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-63852777863615195492010-09-22T12:00:14.481-07:002010-09-22T12:00:14.481-07:00Daniel, I've thought about that. I think my m...Daniel, I've thought about that. I think my main reason is that as I've met guys who simply left the church when they were 13 or who aren't LDS or whatever, and I've discovered I don't respect their seemingly casual dismissal of beliefs to pursue what felt good. Maybe I'm proudly thinking only reasons like mine are valid, but for now, I just struggle with that perspective. It just seems like they think they've written off Evergreen or church-faithfulness, but I find that what they've written off is only their woefully incomplete or inaccurate (in my view) <i>perceptions</i> of them, and I'm a little afraid that one of two things is true:<br /><br />a) They would be shaken if they actually learned that Evergreeners aren't all crazies and weirdos and might do exactly what the guy I was dating did if they went to a conference themselves.<br /><br />b) I find that most gay men are glaringly ignorant of the rationale of those who stay in the church or are conflicted and are actually fairly bigoted towards them, mocking them as if they're irrationally self-loathing nutjobs. I guess I feel partially like they're mocking me three or four years ago, and I don't think I was deserving of such mockery, nor are my friends I care about. A few guys have softened their language or views when I've explained a few things to them, saying they've "never thought of it that way before", but they tend to go back to their derisive views before long, and I'm tired of explaining this stuff and having it dismissed. I just don't know if I could be with such a person just like I've never liked being around mohos who dismissively mocked gay guys who are..."being gay".<br /><br />So no, I don't know that I need someone who has been as conflicted as me, but I want someone who really seems to "get it", either before or after I've talked with them.<br /><br />That said, the guy I was dating wasn't the most completely informed guy about every perspective. He preferred personal conversations with people to conferences or research, which I am kind of attracted to (since I've typically tended to be the opposite), but which also meant he could be blown away by Evergreen's claims of success and the happy faces of those who have "dealt with it" in "gospel-centered ways". I feared that he would be with me for a year or so and then "discover" these supposedly revolutionary ideas of Evergreen or Exodus and feel like he'd been kept in the dark about this whole other perspective (due to political correctness, supposedly, rather than insufficient supporting evidence) and dump my A in the gutter to go after that shiny new ideal...fortunately, it was only a couple of months before that happened, though it still hurts like hell, not gonna lie.<br /><br />But I'm open to a change...how's Boston's economic climate these days? Can a pennyless, single former moho find work and love there? Heh, don't think I'm joking...Original Mohomiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05220176833570828412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-58283550151558983232010-09-22T09:28:38.240-07:002010-09-22T09:28:38.240-07:00"I guess I want to be with someone who has se...<i>"I guess I want to be with someone who has seen both sides, who has listened to people from Evergreen, Sunstone, Affirmation, the Gay Christian Network, etc and opted for a moderate, personally-determined course while maintaining judeo-christian values and principles without the need for institutional or social approbation."</i><br /><br />It sounds to me like you want to date yourself. You want someone who has carefully considered both sides of mo and ho and found the same balance between the two that you have. I think that is a little unfair. Would it be so bad to find someone who wasn't as formerly conflicted as you?MormonRaisedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03756504100827863560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-64722478577242805582010-09-21T10:30:47.373-07:002010-09-21T10:30:47.373-07:00Wait ... you were dating a boy? For real? Good job...Wait ... you were dating a boy? For real? Good job! You should email me on Facebook and give me the details. :)Max Powerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14955796304197971564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-57793886670418117382010-09-20T22:01:08.066-07:002010-09-20T22:01:08.066-07:00Only time will tell if he did the right thing for ...Only time will tell if he did the right thing for himself. He has a very hard, long road ahead, and his odds for success aren't great. It's foolish for anyone to know at this point if he did the right thing, and he may not stay on the path he's now chosen. <br /><br />You, on the other hand, did the right thing in not trying to influence him, even though it resulted in so much personal pain for you. You want someone to commit to you with eyes fully open, knowing the choices, and choosing you. <br /><br />Please don't allow anyone to make you feel dirty. You're an exceptionally kind, loving, honest, selfless, sincere man. You may not know that God exists, but I know He loves you.blj1224https://www.blogger.com/profile/15696404108842065078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-45485935078431795802010-09-20T12:50:45.202-07:002010-09-20T12:50:45.202-07:00Gay Saint, welcome...not sure I know you, but than...Gay Saint, welcome...not sure I know you, but thanks for commenting.<br /><br />1. I expect our goodbye was quite permanent and that he will not be coming back, for various reasons, even though until the conference, things were going really well between us, as far as I knew.<br /><br />2. I think a big factor was that he realized marrying a woman wouldn't have to be the awful, deceptive thing so many make it out to be. I had said that, but I'd bet hearing from spouses who are apparently happy in their marriages (even though they've had some pretty big troubles along the way) was an eye-opener, as I think it is for most who actually attend or talk to them. There are people who have entered their marriages very honestly and openly, and even though they're taking on inherent issues on top of those of any marriage, they both still can choose whether the risks are worth it.<br /><br />3. I actually do think I will be more assertive in my views in the future. If I could do one thing differently, I might have had more conversations with him about the things which are discussed at Evergreen Conferences, so it was less new and more nuanced when he heard it. BUT for all I know, he had a singular, spiritual experience which "changed his heart", and at that point, what could I have even done about that? No mere mortal can combat a supposedly divine experience. *shrug*Original Mohomiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05220176833570828412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6450854270080513022.post-50358237302302579822010-09-20T12:35:07.872-07:002010-09-20T12:35:07.872-07:00I think you made the right choice. You DO want so...I think you made the right choice. You DO want someone who has weighed both options, and has made a solid choice to be who they honestly need to be; someone who can do the best they can do with what they have been given, and chooses you. If you HAD held him back, that could have backfired. Now, who do you think he'll come back to when he realizes it is all a facade?<br /><br />It was one conference - he still hasn't seen the ugly side of things: the propositions from "changed men, the lying and cheating in order to woe a spouse. He'll still have to fight through doing something he knows is immoral ("tricking" a poor innocent daughter of God into marrying him while knowing they both deserve better) if he's even strong enough to honestly consider this path. <br /><br />And when he realizes - hopefully sooner rather than later - he'll know he can come back to you. Maybe it won't be the same relationship it was before, but he'll know that you are someone who can see both sides, who is fair and trustworthy. Had you burned those bridges, he wouldn't be able to say those things about you.<br /><br />Maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing for you to be more persuasive. I think knowing both sides of the arguments and having reasons for choosing the position you did, allows you to BE more persuasive. You can be persuasive from an honest place, and prove your assumptions with your experience.<br /><br />That said, I am so sorry for your loss. A dissovling relationship is never easy regardless of the reasons - and this reason just adds a twist to the knife.Gay Sainthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14558954609570246405noreply@blogger.com