Cryptic Language and Vague References

I had a similar reaction to the trailer. I thought...

2009-11-07T22:55:28.825-07:00

I had a similar reaction to the trailer. I thought "Church leadership and most rank and file members are going to see this as a hatchet job". For the film to have any traction with those in the middle, it should rationally address issues, show both sides and let the audience find the truth for themselves. But judging by the trailer, it's going to be more in the genre of Michael Moore than Bill Moyers.

It's interesting that Dustin Lance Black is involved (apparently only as a narrator, however). His screenplay for Milk was praised for being surprisingly even handed. Doesn't look like this film will be like that, does it?

Oh well, maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised.

I understand and concur with a lot of your stateme...

2009-11-07T22:45:37.707-07:00

I understand and concur with a lot of your statements. I also think you may have jumped the gun by judging this movie from the trailer alone.

A trailer is advertising intended to provoke sufficient interest that people will pay to see the whole film. Nothing more. Every movie trailer reflects the judgment of production staff & marketing as to what will generate that demand. That's all. It can't hope to convey more than a tiny portion of the whole thing. Trailers are therefore normally quite sensationalized as compared to the whole production.

I suggest that it is better to simply reserve judgment and wait to evaluate the whole film on its merits after seeing it.

FWIW, I also agree with Sean that the Church has painted itself into a corner on this issue. Personally I believe there IS room within LDS theology for God's gay children, and it only seems like there isn't if we admit that we really don't believe the 9th Article of Faith and that Section 132 as now popularly understood is the summum bonum Last Word God Will Ever Say On The Subject. Both seem to be latent attitudes in the Church, and both are IMHO directly repugnant to the belief in continuing revelation which we claim to believe in.

I resolve the conflict by choosing to believe God knows the answers and is willing to give them to us IF we are ready to hear and accept them. I think too many people in the Church, including its leadership, have demonstrated that they're not yet ready.

That was really good, O-Mo. Thanks for your thoug...

2009-11-07T22:42:57.172-07:00

That was really good, O-Mo. Thanks for your thoughts. I watched the trailer and also found it faintly ridiculous.

A very principled argument, as usual, OM. If ever...

2009-11-07T22:11:04.784-07:00

A very principled argument, as usual, OM. If ever you formulate an elixer that will replace raw emotion, fear and distrust with sincere love, understanding and concern for our fellow man, you will be able to change the world. Keep up the great work. One heart at a time.

Sean, I understand your perspective. I think you ...

2009-11-07T21:17:48.083-07:00

Sean, I understand your perspective. I think you generalize members of the church too much, but I understand how you see it that way. There's certainly no shortage of members unwilling to even think critically if they're afraid they may have to change their paradigms about something they consider sacred.

And in all fairness, I've seen far more heated emotions and hotter heads in the gay community over this issue than in the church community. But I've seen a lot of emotion on both sides and really hollow rhetoric on both sides.

I'm tired of the whole mess, really, especially since there are more pragmatic measures being taken in states like Washington, finding common ground until further progress can be made, if it can.

Interesting thoughts. I suppose we will not know ...

2009-11-07T20:54:05.597-07:00

Interesting thoughts. I suppose we will not know until the thing is seen who will feel betrayed, vindicated, or just wishing to get back an hour and a half of our lives.

In terms of logical discussion or even debate there are a few too many crazy people, albeit, on both sides to make such things possible.

Regrettably those who defend the church view cannot entertain discourse that could threaten the very existence of the faith. If it were to be irrefutably discovered that homosexuality is a genetic, in born, or otherwise permanent trait, the place for gay people in LDS theology calls in to question with great severity the validity of the Plan of Salvation.

Altering the definition of marriage beyond that which is accepted as an Western cultural norm, or even civil unions, also calls in to question the founding doctrines of Mormonism. Either way when any of the doctrinal tenants of the church are scrutinized it is nigh impossible to get past the usual defense "our faith is being persecuted" to get to the point of having intelligent debate on the issue.

One way or the other it is a corner the church painted itself into since its very creation by Joseph Smith. I think there are plenty of cooler heads on the pro gay side of things that would take the reigns and have meaningful discussions if the other side could produce the same. At this point in time I do not see that happening. The leadership more than ever has elevated themselves to the highest penthouses of the church office building and intentionally refraining from having such interactions with the "other side."
A very convenient place for them as it follows the oldest of LDS traditions, if you can't win run away and live to testify another day.

I think this film demonstrates to all including church leadership that this "problem" as Gordon B. Hinckley put it is not going away. Neither will the gays be silenced by the unjust atrocities being committed in the name of God.

"I know a love that will never grow old..." TROY:...

2009-11-05T23:34:53.709-07:00

"I know a love that will never grow old..."

TROY: I think it's pretty clear that he's under 40 or he probably wouldn't have said, "Maybe being a forty-year-old single gay guy isn't any less awkward."

SCOTT: I agree that not being single probably does make a huge difference, especially if you've been married for a decade or more.

Here's why. If you have bonded to your spouse, chances are you don't really see him or her as they are, you see them as your enternal partner and so the aging is just a temporary artifact of mortality. The real person is the one you fell in love with and the one you love even more now than you did then.

So, do I care that I'm now closer to 60 than 50?
That in just four more years I'm going to have to change my blog name to moho.60? Sure. But I'm not going to dye my thinning hair, wear a toupee, or get a transplant, or a facelift, or shave my chest. Yes, I will continue to stay active physically but that's mostly for mental health, the fact that it improves muscle tone and fights obesity are just side benefits.

Maybe one of the reasons I can accept myself in all my "senior-ness" is because my wife and I both got here together. But you know even if I had chosen a male partner, I still think I would have fallen for someone who loves me not just for my incredibly hot body but for the total me.

I know that's how I feel about so many of my friends. They may or may not be handsome by the world's standards but they are attractive to me because of the bond we share. Anyone can be young and buff. But to be old and yet still fully alive, that takes some experience, some lessons learned, some appreciation for the changing seasons of life.

You're right. I didn't. Hm. Go fig. :-P

2009-11-05T20:58:29.342-07:00

You're right. I didn't. Hm. Go fig. :-P

how old are you anyway? you never said. :p

2009-11-05T20:53:58.771-07:00

how old are you anyway? you never said. :p

Scott, thanks for the input. Sean, you touched on...

2009-11-05T18:41:12.752-07:00

Scott, thanks for the input.

Sean, you touched on another point I've thought of: I could do the social sites thing, depending on the site, but I just...it's not my thing, I don't think, not for meeting people. I'd prefer to meet people, friends or otherwise, through other friends. Online works sometimes for some, and I think it could work for me; I just don't know if I'd have the energy for it. :-)

Quinn, being a sugar daddy would be a definite possibility from a romantic aspect, if I can figure out a way to not be dirt poor anymore. I've already abandoned my dream of being a go-go boy... But friendship-wise with "SSA" guys or nice, LDS guys, sugar daddyism doesn't really work. Or do you know something I don't?

Max, stop bragging. It's unseemly. ;-)

If not you can always be a sugar daddy right?

2009-11-05T18:32:43.377-07:00

If not you can always be a sugar daddy right?

You can be dead in gay years and still be good loo...

2009-11-05T18:32:27.608-07:00

You can be dead in gay years and still be good looking!

Meh. I'm 36 and have a 26 year old hottie boyfrien...

2009-11-05T16:33:32.413-07:00

Meh. I'm 36 and have a 26 year old hottie boyfriend. I'm definitely not past my prime. ;)

As one reaching the first round of gay death which...

2009-11-05T15:04:12.234-07:00

As one reaching the first round of gay death which I'm told is 30 I hope my expiration date is not quickly coming. I guess this is why I've joined so many social network and dating sites lately. Having been married and exed I'm not keen on living the rest of life alone anymore... especially now that I've found myself.

I'm pretty sure I've got a few years on you. Of co...

2009-11-05T14:08:51.612-07:00

I'm pretty sure I've got a few years on you. Of course, I'm not single, and I'm sure that makes a huge difference...

I think I agree with Daniel, though. Your observations are probably somewhat valid, but also somewhat skewed by the crowd you are associating with.

This is only indirectly related, but I was actually commenting to Sarah a week or two ago that there aren't very many "mohos" our age. Nearly everyone who has adopted that title is either under 30 or over 40.

We decided that it's because the over-40s had a lot of time to settle into a family before it was socially comfortable to come out and so they need the support of the moho community as they deal with everything that being a gay married Mormon entails, while the under-30s are young enough that they are still coming to terms with things.

The thirtysomethings, on the other hand, have all (or mostly) solved all of their issues and left the church (and their wives and families, in many cases) and have no need for this sort of community, and so there aren't very many of us.

As I said... an observation that's only tangentially related, but there it is. :)

sigh...I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks/w...

2009-11-05T13:16:23.572-07:00

sigh...I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks/worries about this...you seem to be much more at ease with it than I am though :)

Yeah, I cut the paragraph about how a lot of peopl...

2009-11-05T11:39:17.751-07:00

Yeah, I cut the paragraph about how a lot of people have, by my age, polarized or stopped "needing" the support the firesides offer. I've been at the "I'm only coming to see some Salt Lake friends I don't see all that often and to see the Matises" stage for well over a year now. I don't really take anything away from them anymore as far as "support" goes; I just find some of the presentations interesting and enjoy some good company.

Thanks for the affirmation. I think I'm past my prime in many ways, but I'm not dead yet!

Ha, and I love the Will Truman example. And he was a total hottie...for his age. ;-)

You are not too old to be gay and single. How old ...

2009-11-05T11:27:15.816-07:00

You are not too old to be gay and single. How old was Will Truman when he settled down? You may be too old for Provo. I see the obsession with young relationships as a Utah Valley thing. I expect in New York, for example, that things are different.

You are also old for that limbo state that Moho's go through. After a while, people tend to figure out what they want and either date and estrange themselves with the Church or embrace celibacy and estrange themselves from the gay community. I've noticed that the Matis firesides attract a lot of people who haven't decided, and so they are younger. I would assume the folk who were attending with you when you were young have already aligned with one side or the other. They've moved on.

But they still exist! You are not past your prime at all!

(for the record, I think fondly of growing old with my loved one)

If you don't try your hand at free-lance short sto...

2009-11-05T08:03:51.754-07:00

If you don't try your hand at free-lance short story writing (or photography or journalism, or both), you should be throttled.

Luke, I think some of that has already been touche...

2009-11-04T20:01:18.638-07:00

Luke, I think some of that has already been touched on, but your questions are interesting ones. Unfortunately, I don't have stats or studies to expound more.

Lacking self discipline in kicking a habit you feel you should kick and being addicted seem pretty clearly distinct to me, but I've never been addicted to substances, and I guess I don't know what psychologists technically define as a psychological addiction.

But that's kind of my point: guys (and gals) who are raised believing porn is a terrible evil may be so disgusted with themselves that they have to slough blame onto something external, whether evil spirits, or addiction, or whatever, but people who are raised believing it's an unsavory but fairly normal habit are probably more likely to just admit they have a bad habit and leave it at that. ...I don't know. Anyone better read on this than me wanna pipe in?

Actually, the Cyber Secrets conference is a good source of LDS-perspective speeches on pornography.

There are conflicting definitions of addiction at ...

2009-11-04T13:13:53.802-07:00

There are conflicting definitions of addiction at work here. What does it mean to use porn “compulsively” or “regularly”? For some, “addictive” use of porn might be once a month, once a week, once a day, or many hours in a day. Some would measure addictive use by how much it disturbs their lives: has it cost them money or significant relationships? For the most part, surveys are not standardized around specific definitions or descriptions.

For instance, take the survey results published in Porn University (by Michael Leahy). In this survey:

42% of men (7,065) said they “regularly” visit sexually explicit websites or chat rooms, read sexually explicit magazines, or romance novels.

Yet 64% of men (10,622) said they spend at least some time each week online for sexual purposes. About one in five of these said they spend 5 or more hours every week.

Furthermore 19% of men (3,187) said they feel “controlled” by their sexual desire or fantasies of romance.

Clearly, what is considered “regular” use of pornography or being “controlled” by it are not the same across the board.

So what makes someone feel “out of control”? One contributing factor psychologists give is: religion. Pioneering sex therapist Michael Quadland has studied those who feel “out of control” with their sexual behavior. He found a patient’s and therapist’s beliefs about what is sexually “normal” is the biggest controlling factor in whether the behavior is deemed compulsive or destructive. So if a Christian’s value system leads him to believe that any sexual gratification outside of marital intimacy is wrong, then any amount of compulsion to look at porn could be deemed “out of control.”

As a Christian I find these ideas very interesting. Thoughts?

1. I am a faithful, diligent reader and have yet t...

2009-11-03T17:48:15.114-07:00

1. I am a faithful, diligent reader and have yet to be offended.
2. You do not write boring or crappy posts. They are always enlightening and enjoyable, often giving me pause for thought.
3. I don't comment more, ie engage in dialogue/start the uber-pithy conversation in the comments because I'm not good at that sort of thing.
4. You know me AND I know where you sleep.

it would be good for the world, or just even the c...

2009-11-03T15:14:14.347-07:00

it would be good for the world, or just even the church to see active good LDS gay members...

Hmm...

I suppose that makes (or made...) me an active bad LDS gay member? ;)

O-Mo touched on the issue... the "out-there" bloggers tend to subscribe to ideas that vary from the church's official position.

But technically isn't that going to be the case just by default? According to God Loveth His Children gay members (excuse me, members who experience same-gender attraction) aren't supposed to "flaunt" their attractions or associate with others who do. They're supposed to stay closeted and anonymous. As soon as you take that step into the public eye you've made your first move against the church's wishes.

There are vocal, public, "out-there" bloggers who have testimonies and would like to be good, active members of the church (even if they don't see eye-to-eye with the church on every gay-related issue), but the church doesn't make it easy for them (or at least local leaders often don't).

I think it'd be grand if more moho bloggers revealed their identities--especially those who adhere more closely to the church's policies. The more of us who are public, the harder it gets for members to be judgmental and prejudiced. I tried to make a difference, but my views on gay marriage destroyed my credibility in many peoples' eyes. Maybe others can have more success.

Am not! ...well, OK, I guess the sixth bullet poi...

2009-11-03T13:31:11.631-07:00

Am not! ...well, OK, I guess the sixth bullet point in the Werehomo post was totally based on myself, at least the incidental kind (read "once")...and maybe I've experienced a bit of the fifth, too. ...am NOT.

MTAM, I can identify with that. :-) Quinn, while ...

2009-11-03T13:15:51.287-07:00

MTAM, I can identify with that. :-)

Quinn, while I'm not especially church-going as of late, I still have reasons for maintaining anonymity, and it's not about shame but about...I don't know, this blog is for people to find a perspective they might identify with or not understand but want to, but it's not "personal", despite being frank in a way...make sense? Yeah, didn't think so. :-)

Anyway, I see increasingly many out-and-open faithful LDS blogs. I think it's a trend that will continue, especially since, as you said, the most vocal, out-there bloggers and YouTubers tend to be either former LDS or active LDS but subscribing to notions far outside of official church statements or policy, so faithful, more in-line LDS are feeling pressure to respond...